Scout update discussion

[so1id sn@ke]

Really? I liked pyro's update & I though the sandvich was a stroke of genius. Even the medic update was good if not for the strategies you could employ with the blut & ubersaw.

As a scout main I can tell you that the FaN only has two shots. And unless it's point-blank 3 shots ain't even gonna kill you as heavy (on a dispenser no less). I still feel FaN is underpowered, sandman sacrifices too much for that one ball (as powerful as it can be), and Bonk is too limited by it's startup time & short duration.

Out of them, I'd say FaN is the most useful right now, and I wouldn't touch the sandman as it doesn't suit my playing style. It seems to be more so scouts can do something useful when they're with a pack of teammates, they can tag an enemy and he'll get torn to shreds by allies. I on the other hand mostly ambush enemies behind they're lines alone or with other scout/sometimes spies.

Also, as I've said before, if you take FaN, take pistol too.

[SpamBotChris]

Three shots it was. BOOM BOOM BOOM dead. He did reload, which makes it all the more galling because he was in my circle of death all the time he reloaded. The dispenser didn't have much effect because I was knocked off it by the first shot. I hope it critted -I didn't notice - so this is just another example of crit-rape, rather than an insane balance.

Of course, this is down to Natascha as well as the FAN. But that's another story...

[so1id sn@ke]

Natacha is also broken (again!) now, so I wouldn't equip it if I was going heavy in this rain of scouts.

Also, it must have been due to latency, the FaN carries two shots. Either he's 1337 hax or admin, because that's akin to firing 5 rockets as soldier.

[Pie21]

Or he reloaded

I'm up to 14 achievements including Milestone 1, and am starting to enjoy it after a shaky start. It seems the achievements are meant to be earned against a team that ISN'T 90% Scouts, but I'm getting there slowly.

So far I've only tried out the FaN, and I gotta say it seems pretty balanced in the same way the compression blast is. The kick puts the enemy out of position, but doesn't really help you directly. The damage is high, but you only get two shots and have to be very close for it to stick. Plus, the recoil means you kinda have to stay on the ground while fighting, or else you'll end up going away from your target, which isn't what you want, so you can't buzz around as much as Scatterscouts.

I've seen a few people using the Bonk!, and it seems like a good ability for the Scout. Only when you have a Bonk!ed Scout running towards your team do you realise how important bullet damage is. One complaint I have is that he dodges fire from the flamethrower too, which makes no sense to me. It should AT LEAST ignite him, if not do full damage. Anyway, I hadn't considered it as a mini-uber to make up for him never getting ubered until Chris pointed it out, and that's a pretty bang-on point. Thumbs up.

As for the Sandman, well, it's a contentious one. I don't like control being taken away, BUT I'm coming to think it works for a couple of reasons. Firstly, getting hit doesn't always mean death, and often Scouts will be shooting balls at you the same way a Pyro shoots flares - to weaken you rather than set up an instant kill. Your teammates will generally back you up, so it's only really useful from an insta-kill perspective when you're alone with the Scout (in which case the Scout gets a buff to make up for a weakened bat that he would otherwise almost certainly turn to). There's also the matter of reloading, and while you can just pick up the ball, the situations in which the ball could be most abused (spamming at range) are the same ones that really only happen once before the Scout has to find something else to do. Oh, and it seems pretty hard to aim, just from watching.

One of the important points to consider here is that the Sandman may well be better balanced when not EVERYONE is Scout. At the moment, there's balls flying everywhere, so the weapon's danger level is exaggerated. However when a team has maybe 1 or 2 Scouts, landing a hit with a ball would be a rare occurrence, and again one that may well not end up being a kill. As for stopping ubers, well... that would be very easy to nerf away.

[Zijoku]

Not commenting on the uber-stun aspect, as the jury is out on that one in my book, but I'd have to say that the Sand-man is pretty balanced.

I say this from the perspective of a sniper that's on the receiving end. Before the update, if a Sniper and a scout met, W/out a surprise round, at closer then sniping range, the sniper had a 40 percent chance of escape/victory.
After the update, assuming the scout has the SM the sniper has a 20 percent chance of escape/victory, assuming the scout is proficient.

Now at first that seems like weak sauce, but remember, if a Sniper met with a soldier or pyro, it was pretty much game over for the Sniper. Meaning that the Sand-man actually helps the scout fulfill the role of the attacker, in that he can own people, just as a solder/pyro would.

That and the fact that even at short range, the thing takes skill, and the fact that it takes away the super-useful double-jump, I'd say that the sand-man is balanced.

Again, this analysis doesn't take the uber-stun into account, an issue that I am thoroughly on the fence about.

[ZoliEsq]

40%?.... I don't quite agree with that. Scout's put the rape on snipers all the time.

[SpamBotChris]

Ah, sage and measured replies as always. TF2S >> steampowered

Theory: pyro flames don't affect a bonk!-scout because of the wind of his passage?

[Pie21]

Ah, sage and measured replies as always. TF2S >> steampowered

Probably because the folks here aren't talking to Valve, so they don't have to yell

Theory: pyro flames don't affect a bonk!-scout because of the wind of his passage?

Even if you're correct, I'd far prefer to misinterpret that sentence

[so1id sn@ke]

Ah, sage and measured replies as always. TF2S >> steampowered

Isn't it wonderful?

Also, if you've never seen a good sniper manage to rape a scout that tried to get close, you've never seen a good sniper. It's a beautiful (because of the skill use of SMG & machete) & disgusting (because I main scout) sight at once.

[FiBReaDsh]

I've earned 25 achievements but I still haven't got the bonk drink. What should I do???

[so1id sn@ke]

Is it there now?

Problems like that are usually solved by exiting & restarting the game, or simply waiting a couple minutes.

[ZoliEsq]

I've actually heard there's a lot of ppl having that problem.. maybe valve just ran out of the supples for the weapons... That's what U get for not acting fast!..... U didn't see the fine print where it said.. "while supplies last"?

[SpamBotChris]

Even if you're correct, I'd far prefer to misinterpret that sentence

_____ 
O         <------Your mind
_____     <-----The gutter

[Grimgrin\\NyN]

So, now it's been here for a bit. I must say, the patch is nice... quite so yes. but of course I can't get around with just saying that.

the Force-A-Nature: Sure, fine and all, knockback makes it a pyro/soldier killer so much is sure. nothing wrong with it, a nice sidegrade. I've played with it and the first thing that springs to mind... ''WOAH two rounds that fast and than reload, I'm more reloading than firing that weapon''. despite that it's not bad, given the fast reload. I preferred hit&run actions with it. yes even more than usual. just get up close fire two shots and get out, not fire 6 shots and hang around to see if they're dead. the knockback's rocket-jump function is quite cool.

the Bonk! energy drink: yes this is one I use often, to escape from tight spots or get through chokepoints. a mini-uber. definately fantastic. the cost of your pistol doesn't weigh too heavy in most occasions (I found) but sometimes I can't resist pressing ''2'' to get out my pistol, but grab a can of drink instead.... still a nice one. gives the scout some survival. (and more annoyance: You can just drink it behind a corner, stand in a chokepoint, do a taunt, don't get hit.. run out to safety... drives snipers/demoman mad when they're spamming that area)

the sandman:... what to say about that... yes the lack of double jump weighs (imo, VERY) heavy. aside from that there's the -50% damage vs non stunned enemies.. and the chance you'll stun someone is low... and the chance to stun someone long enough to get close, put them down.. is often even lower. (unless 1v1 against something with not too much hp perhaps.)
For me, the lack of double jump, and the half-damage isn't worth taking it. often you'll just want to club down some near-dead enemy, not first having to throw a ball at them (taking one swing, and a fair chance to miss) only to find your damage so low you need even longer.
if sandman would have allowed the double jump, yes i might consider taking it.
so for the sandman, it's rather hard to hit, one or two scouts on the team still doesn't create much stuns (so the scout-spam in some servers indeed make it look more fearsome than it is) IMO they could have allowed double jump and it would still be fair. either that or the lower damage removed, just give it 50% crit against stunnned targets (axtinguisher-like)

what I have seen work though is combined with the FAN... stun and quickly slam two rounds, point blank into the target, kills a soldier. so sandman can be nice at times. also when your enemy is creating wave after wave of ubercharges, it's nice to stop them.

So, for now I'll stick with the original loadout, perhaps the Bonk! if there's lots of chokepoints to go through.

[Zijoku]

40%?.... I don't quite agree with that. Scout's put the rape on snipers all the time.

No doubt my Suckositude skewing my numbers.