Scout update discussion

[Pie21]

Well said, Grim. The FaN is interesting because it's features (recoil, fast shooting) are also weaknesses, in that if you try and use it like a Scattergun you'll find yourself in trouble. With the Scattergun, I find I'm always jumping and in the air somewhere, but you kinda have to stay on the ground while fighting with the FaN, or you'll end up blowing yourself AWAY from your target and losing damage.

However I'm loving The Sandman (unlocked it yesterday) for similar reasons as the compression blast. Most importantly, it's awesome fun to use, requiring good aim (like the flares) and timing (like the blast), and creates a bunch of hilarious and tactical opportunities where you'd otherwise just end up shooting people. THAT is the kind of weapon I will go for every time.

Working on Bonk!, about 3 achievements off. Will report back then

[Grimgrin\\NyN]

Yeah, you've pretty much pinpointed it with your scatterscouts are midair and FaN scouts are on the ground. after playing a few rounds last night with the original setup i thought heck let's give it a damn shot.
so here comes a report on that. I also must note that the sandman is a tad overpowered when there's a skilled scout, or two scouts. you can just perform stunlocks on people, it really is annoying if you're on the other side, getting bonked, or as medic seeing your precious uber just getting wasted like that.

That aside it was all unlockables equipped and ready to go. I did notice (more than before since I had been scattergunning all night) that once you come close to someone they pretty much die if you have the FaN. no need to aim twice, it'll fire those rounds so fast anyway. combined with the Sandman (and jeez I missed that double jump when I started with SMan again) you can stun, run up and blast em to shreds. unless you forgot to reload... (happened to me.. yes... )
the bonk!-drink gave me so much more survival. if you ran past a sentry first, got hurt badly but are trapped in a corner, drink up and run back safely. or annoy that sniper by him wasting his charged shot on a scout that's ''uber-charged''.
Most annoying thing that I pulled off (and maybe that's why the sandman is a bit Overpowered) is the following: uber heavy coming in, as he revved up he got stunned ''BONK!'', the ball rolled back to me so as the first stun wore off, ''BONK!'' again. and a third time to top it off, before the uber ran out. (from experience as heavy getting ubered and get it wasted like that, is most frustrating. Yes I have played heavy also today, but got Bonk-owned all the time)

Diminishing returns on the stun, has my vote!

[Malkavian]

Yeah, diminishing returns is a good idea. Something like, every hit after the first one is halved in duration...so 100%, 50%, 25% etc. Would force you to use the ball/stun a bit more tactically.

Course, this is coming from someone who hates scouts (both 'as' and 'vs'), so I might be a wee bit biased.

[9Squirrels]

I haven't had a play on the new updates, I spent most of the weekend working or looking after my kid, has anyone got any impressions of the new maps though?
Frankly, I wish Valve would concentrate on getting some more good maps out there, but the egyptions themed map sounded really good from the description, especially the bit about "the ruins provide Engineers with a large number of potential sentrygun locations." Mmmm sentries...

[Still Learning]

The maps are hardly new, as they are all community maps. Haven't played watchtower yet, but Egypt and Junction are rather old. While Egypt is quite interesting, junction just sucks. Very cramped, small, confusing, dark. Imagine steel, only with 3 cps instead of 5, and way smaller. That's the way it feels XD A spamfest of demomen and domain of pyros. The third cap is just.... silly.

Egypt... I initially liked egypt because of the different tileset and colors. A lot of BIG wide-open spaces, making the map quite sniper-friendly and not quite so spy-friendly. The second and third levels also feature a lot of vertical ground, making demomen and soldiers useful on both offense and defense. Engies are invaluable for their teleporters, and there are some interesting sentry placements for defense - especially since it buys You a lot of time if someone runs into an unexpected sentry ( respawn time + long walks ).

From my impression, the map is unusually difficult for the defense, unlike any other attack/defense map. The last cap on last stage is nowhere near the BLU hell that is Dustbowl 3 or GOldrush 3. That's a welcome change.

Since my fav class is spy ( which might change after the update; testing revealed the "fix" broke more things than it fixed =) ), I'm not quite having so much fun playing it as I would if my main was sniper or soldier, but it's challenging

[Pie21]

Watchtower is GREAT for Scouts, because you can just run free along the pipes and around the ground. Surprisingly Sniper-unfriendly in my experience, since there's giant fences everywhere. You have to be really exposed to see much, and since it's otherwise so open, everyone will be after you. I think it could perhaps benefit from being a little smaller (like, scaled down a bit), but my testing has hardly been thorough, and only with Scout (going for Fall Classic ).

Egypt is pretty and big, Still Learning's pretty much summed it up. However I happen to love Junction - I treat it more like a deathbox than a real map. I love how it compresses the spaces and focuses the carnage. Funny as hell to defend. Maybe this is all just because I'm always Pyro on it.

[so1id sn@ke]

However I happen to love Junction - I treat it more like a deathbox than a real map. I love how it compresses the spaces and focuses the carnage. Funny as hell to defend. Maybe this is all just because I'm always Pyro on it.

The defensive classes all shine on the map. I got an awesome heavy run the other day, they didn't even get past the first room out of the spawn (on my side at least, I was defending A the whole time). Tough to spy because of the small space and that it's a very inviting map for pyros. Demo is pretty awesome on it though.

[Scawt]

Junction is too friendly to the defense. It can be very hard for the Offense to take A before taking B, and taking C at all is quite the task. That being said, defensive maps should be a struggle for the offense; a good game of Gravel Pit can often run the clock to the buzzer. However, I expect Junction to show up on Valve's stat tracker with a similar progression as Goldrush.

In terms of the entire update, I think it's pretty solid with a couple of exceptions. The Force a Nature needs to be worse. Right now I feel like it'll end up being the standard for Scouts. I'd like to see it get nerfed a tad in a week or so, maybe by lowering overall damage. It's easy for a Scout to get close to someone and really deal the damage. Of course, I think the Scout should be able to beat any class 1 on 1 because their primary weakness is groups, and considering TF2 is a team game, it's a proper balance.

The Sandman is my other worry. I'm not worried that it's overpowered, but I am worried that it's sort of useless. Really, it feels like a novelty more than anything right now. I rarely see it really succeed to a degree that changes anything. Yeah, I get killed by it sometimes but I get killed by other things far more. Once the Scout craze dies down, I don't think it'll end up being a big nerf to Uber.

[SpamBotChris]

I think the Scout should be able to beat any class 1 on 1

...

[Scawt]

...

I think it's fair. The Scout is hard to draw a bead on, can use the environment to his advantage and can do some serious damage at close range. That beats most other classes. Really, the only thing I have trouble taking down is a Sentry gun, and with Bonk and a couple buddies it's not a big deal.

[SpamBotChris]

I'm not sure whether you mean

a) at current, scouts beat any class in a one on one situation (assuming equal skill levels) - which is possibly true

or

b) the game ought to be balanced such that scouts are the most deadly class. - to which I say "..."

[CaleWillKill]

I love watchtower. Just had to say that.

And as for the weapons, the only one I use is bonk. I don't like the fan because I like my shotguns to hold too many shells and reload too quickly, and I miss my double jump too much with the sandman.

I hate being stunned by the sandman. I'm glad they nerfed it a bit stunwise, but I don't think the 50% damage fall off should be there when you are stunned.

Bonk is very fun to run around with. Great for getting away quickly. Now you can escape if someone backs you into the corner.

[CaleWillKill]

I really like the bonk drink. Many times as a pyro I've gotten away around a corner, but if I go out of the hiding spot I'll get gunned down. This happens to me as scout too, but I don't play him as much.

Anyway, my point being is now if I need to get away, I can round the corner, drink the kool aid, and making a easy escape.

Not to mention it works wonders distracting sentries in dustbowl stage 1 cap 2. I won the game for the team because a demo could sticky up the whole place while they were firing at me.

[kitfighter]

I love watchtower. Just had to say that.

And as for the weapons, the only one I use is bonk. I don't like the fan because I like my shotguns to hold too many shells and reload too quickly, and I miss my double jump too much with the sandman.

I hate being stunned by the sandman. I'm glad they nerfed it a bit stunwise, but I don't think the 50% damage fall off should be there when you are stunned.

Bonk is very fun to run around with. Great for getting away quickly. Now you can escape if someone backs you into the corner.

Shotgun? is that a good weapon?

[RabbitsFoot]

Hi there Kitfighter! Welcome to the TF2S forums, and I hope you stay (we need new blood ). By shotgun he means the scout's scattergun, and it's betterthan the Force-a-Nature (in my opinion) because it has more shots so whilst the FaN is better in 1v1s, the scattergun is much more useful when you're against more than one opponent.