Scout update discussion

[CaleWillKill]

I have brought you the pyro, and the heavy update discussion threads. And now I'm pleased to announce that the scout is next up in the queue for updates. There main goal: make him more useful in linear maps like dustbowl or goldrush.

My proposal is a nailgun. Hard to hit moving enemies, easy to hit stationary targets. Great for taking out lone sentries blocking your way, but leaves you defenseless. Similar to the one from tfc.

Pistol replacement: a radio that when you aim at someone and click, it taunts, with the scout murmuring into the mic. Then a sign for the enemie's class and health will show up like a medic balloon for your whole team.

Bat: The slugger. The longer you run with it out the more damage it will do on it's first strike.

The nailgun would solve part of the dustbowl map problems. Another idea I've seen a lot is baseballs that replace the pistols. The baseballs can be thrown to distract sentries briefly.

[Pie21]

All right!!! THANK YOU VALVE!

Man, I just wanted to post something here. I'm too busy wanting to try the update out to think about the next one, but I'll be back later with ideas.

[Still Learning]

From my point of view, giving scouts ways to deal with sentries effectively is a definite no-no.

I mean, for heaven's sake, why should they? What would sentries be good for then? Melee snipers? Other engies? As it is now, the main point of a sentry is to a) buy time and b) prevent scout rushes. That's it. If scouts can deal with sentries, it's just to buy time now.

Let's be honest, a sentry is so easy to take out right now. Soldiers, demos, no problem. Heavies and pyros as well, if they have medics and the sentries are not in wide open areas - and if they are, they're all the easier to take out with soldiers, demomen, and snipers. Some sentry placements make them very vulnerable to needlegun fire. Any class with an uber, that's a given. Now scouts, too? No thanks.

[Pie21]

My suggestion is to give the Scout something that you would actually use to scout with. I've always thought it a little odd that a Scout runs around carrying a hefty close-range weapon. He's supposed to be ahead of his team spotting targets, not killing them in 1 hit.

Hence as an alternative to the scatter gun, give him a laser pointer-type weapon (I suck at names) which is invisible to enemies (except for a dot, like the sniper rifle but smaller), and when held on a target for a second or two 'lights them up' for the scout's team. After my recent L4D binge, I'm thinking give them an outline that your teammates can see through walls, and maybe show their health (depends on balance). It can also mark up engy buildings, with the same effect (although it'd definitely show health). It may not sound like much, but I'd be interested in seeing how knowing where enemies are would affect gameplay.

The secondary fire of this little laser could be a more intense laser that doesn't mark enemies, but can effectively blind enemies. This could be used to shut down snipers/demomen/heavies (key defensive targets) temporarily to let your team advance and to let you sneak around better to get more marks. You could probably also use it for a pretty epic rush - if you turned a corner to find a soldier or something in front of you, you could blind him and sprint past. If nothing else, you could more easily get behind the enemy, even in linear maps, and mess with them, even though it doesn't really do damage. You could get like half a point for a mark, and assists for kills on marked targets.

That's it for now - secondary and melee weapons are harder

[CaleWillKill]

I'm just going to give a secondary replacement, since all of them so far have been the big gameplay change for classes.

The goal is to make him more useful very linear and choke point based attack and defend maps. Right now He can be used well on defense in those maps but rarely offense, as he requires there to be no sentry guarding one of the chokepoints and there is still not much room to run.

The big problem is not sentries, it's getting out in the open or to a place where you can run free. So my idea is the riot shield.

The Riot Shield: This replaces the pistol. The riot shield While left clicking, it will protect you from all damage in front of you.
- You will still recieve knockback from sentryfire and rockets, though a limited ammount.
- Allows you to face a sentry/heavy/spamming class while running to safe or more open ground. Break free of the choke points of death.

Uses:
- running past a sentry to a safe place
- protecting yourself from fire while capping a point.
- Protect your team with a barrier.
- Advance on a enemy or retreat with minimal damage.

Other possibilities:
- should nades and stickies bounce off the shield?
- Should the view when drawn be a narrow slit in the shield, or should it switch to 3rd person?
- to what degree should he still recieve knockback?
- Does natascha still slow him down?

[CaleWillKill]

That's it for now - secondary and melee weapons are harder

Actually, that sounds like a secondary. All of the primary unlocks so far are just variations of the orginal, while the flare, sandvich, and kritz (to an extent) are all originals.

[Pie21]

True, it could be secondary I guess. Looking back, it was 1am when I posted that (and incidentally went on a bit of a bash through the Steam forums angering at the baseball suggestions until about 3, don't know what got into me ), and it actually sounds better as a pistol replacement. It'd be relatively similar in size anyway.

[ZoliEsq]

IT would have to have a view disadvantage or something.. in maps like 2 fort it would be impossible to kill him from behind if he plays right since he moves so fast comparitively.[url][/url]

[Pie21]

Oops, forgot to mention the riot shield! I like it as an idea, but it'd be very hard to design fairly I reckon. For instance, how does it work against rockets? Does shooting the Scout's feet still hurt him with his shield up? What kind of angle does it block? Because if you run through a choke point, there's always going to be people behind you shooting at you, never mind the sentry gun(s).

Still it's got possibilities.

Something I thought of a bit randomly a few minutes ago was to give the Scout some kind of special bat with which he can do hunter pounces (includeing wall jumps!). It would be completely imbalanced, but so much fun. Oh, and you get damage bonuses for long pounces

[chipbuster69]

I think the laser designator is an interesting idea. Kinda like the sniper rifle from fortress forever. Maybe show an outline and a healthbar for 15-30 seconds before it wears off.
The scout is really overpowered in maps like gravelpit though, as long as you don't run into sentries, you can harass people until they commit suicide.

also...
Valve, can we have the caltrops back?
pleaseeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee????

[ZoliEsq]

I think with the amount they recently messed with the random damage is enough. Scouts scattergun is rediculously overpowered in the right hands as are the Demo Pipes. I mean a soldier can hit a scout dead on and hurt him, a scout hits a soldier dead on and kills him, both with full health respectively.

[so1id sn@ke]

I think with the amount they recently messed with the random damage is enough. Scouts scattergun is rediculously overpowered in the right hands as are the Demo Pipes. I mean a soldier can hit a scout dead on and hurt him, a scout hits a soldier dead on and kills him, both with full health respectively.

But consequently a scout can shoot an unaware solider thrice (how often do you see someone use that word, eh? )
and not kill him, and the soldier can turn around and 1-crocket him.

As for the scout not, well, scouting: Valve has stated in the interviews that the problem with the TFC scout was that he simply wasn't fun to play. He had inferior weapons and no special ability. They wanted the scout to be fun to use, and since a lot of the game revolves around combat, they had to make the scout combat-effective. Thus, double-jump and scattergun. I like the idea of a gun that the scout can use to blind people though, I feel the scout should be a harder counter to snipers then he is atm. The ability to blind or make some sort of evasive dash (with invulnerability frames) would suit the scout well.

[Zijoku]

To above: GAwd that would be scary, an invuln scout commin in with the buster gun? eep. As a fervent scout user I hope this occurs, naturally.

[iMmOrTaLcOiLz2]

i'd like a bat replacement that increases speed when it hits: 25% more speed for 10 seconds (non-crit) and 50% more speed for 10 seconds (crit). The downside would be that it inflicts half damage and is 20% slower. The speed ability cannot stack.
Great for passing SG's without locking on to you and firing.

[so1id sn@ke]

To above: GAwd that would be scary, an invuln scout commin in with the buster gun? eep. As a fervent scout user I hope this occurs, naturally.

Nah, it'd be like....a dash, the scout dashes maybe 10 meters or so in a direction with blur & afterimages behind him. Ever played King Of Fighters? I'm thinking like that slide you can do pressing light punch & kick at the same time, though obviously sped up to the scout's normal running speed.

It'd suit the scout well in evading, acting as a sort of horizontal compliment to the vertical double-jump. However, it'd have about the same rate of use as the airblast (as in, not spammable), so all a good sniper would have to do is wait for the small lag between dashes. Still, it'd mean the difference between making it past a couple enemies or getting a bullet in the face.

Also, like the airblast, the scout wouldn't be able to dash & attack at once. Either because the scout lowers his weapon during the maneuver or because the dash itself takes up a weapon slot. So it wouldn't buff scout vs sentries, but it would allow him to slide past them with less damage (though still probably taking some).